Originally Posted by Shunt

This isn't exactly recent(4/16/06), but Chauncey Billups has 5 "game-winning" shots. Though, Kobe has only 2 more "game-winners" than him. Also, no NBA team should ever allow 81 points from one NBA player and for you to say that it was just the Raptors just proves that you are blinded by your hate for Kobe to see the history behind his feat. The Raptors tried the whole game to defend Kobe, but it was to no avail. Kobe adjusted every time the defense adjusted to him and he kept bring it.

The Raptors sucked, so it's obvious they couldn't defend him. It's like bragging about beating blind kids in pool. (exegeration but my point nonetheless)

35.1 ppg is a big deal. Just because his team didn't do well doesn't downgrade that amazing statistic.

Yeah it does, AI and TMac consistently lead the league in scoring throughout those years yet IT doesn't make them amazing or Michael Jordan es. More of the fact is that his average was only that high because he scored 81 pts in a game, if he hadn't had that one game he wouldn't have even beat AIs 33 ppg.

His team wasn't shooting up to his expectations and he had the mindset to go out and score that many points because he is a winner.

lol I guess this also a reason to go out and b..ch about having bad teammates and then have countless anoying interviews in which you whine and say something like I DEMAND to be traded. Jeez it makes his personality look sh.ttier than it already is and puts him up their with TO and Randy Moss, I mean AI has had bad teammates his entire professional career but he didn't even demand to be traded, so have countless other players.

There is one thing I hate about athletes and it's those that out their team and throw their teammates under the bus. That just makes me dislike a person when they do something like that.

Even Coach Phil Jackson has come out to say that he wants Kobe to score that many points because even Jackson knows that the Lakers can only win through Kobe. Only Wilt and Jordan(I think) have had a better season and that's saying something. For a player to go out and score that much points a game every night is phenomenal.

What does scoring that many points have to do with anything I don't see how that makes him amazing because he scored a lot of points in one game. In reality it doesn't help his team in the long run for him to have the ball and shoot it that many times, its like a quick fix because they'll get the win but it won't give other players the touches they need in order to develop. This is proven by Kobe taking less shots and his team doing better. Wilt of course had a better season, and Jordan, but a regular season means nothing. Nada, not a damn thing. I mean the whole scoring thing would be a great argument if he was consistent, but his career average isn't on par with those like AI, Jordan and Wilt.

Now, I am not saying that Kobe is better than everyone on that list because 1-on-1, Kobe would probably be schooled by some of those players, but statistically, Kobe has put himself above a lot of those legends. That's why he is compared to MJ because he is that damn good.

Stats aren't everything, the fact is that each of those guys had niches that made them amazing. Pete Maravich is a basketball god who just was plagued with injuries(like Bill Walton) that hampered his NBA career, I mean he averaged 45 pts A GAME in college WITHOUT A 3PT LINE. That is amazing. Also Kobe is not on MJs level, he can take over games yes, but he hasn't willed his team through the playoffs on his back and won a chip on his own. Not saying that Jordan did all of the games, but he certainly did more than his part I think him and AI and probably Wilt are the only players to average 30 or more pts in the post season. That is clutch.

I also applaud the Lakers GM on trading Shaq. In the long term, it was the best decision.

lol.....no they could have at least won one more considering Shaq did in Mia. But even he couldn't deal with Kob..ch.

Originally Posted by H3F Carnage

The Raptors sucked, so it's obvious they couldn't defend him. It's like bragging about beating blind kids in pool. (exegeration but my point nonetheless)

There have been crappier teams than the Toronto Raptors and even they never let a player put up 81 or more points. Only one team has and the player they were defending was an unstoppable center. For a shooting guard to score that many points is just unbelievable.

Originally Posted by H3F Carnage

Yeah it does, AI and TMac consistently lead the league in scoring throughout those years yet IT doesn't make them amazing or Michael Jordan es. More of the fact is that his average was only that high because he scored 81 pts in a game, if he hadn't had that one game he wouldn't have even beat AIs 33 ppg.

First off, Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg during the 05-06 season. My bad. Secondly, if you were to subtract 81 points from Kobe's 2,832 points that season and divided by one less game than the 80 games he played that season, he would still average about 34.8 ppg. Do the math.

Originally Posted by H3F Carnage

lol I guess this also a reason to go out and b..ch about having bad teammates and then have countless anoying interviews in which you whine and say something like I DEMAND to be traded. Jeez it makes his personality look sh.ttier than it already is and puts him up their with TO and Randy Moss, I mean AI has had bad teammates his entire professional career but he didn't even demand to be traded, so have countless other players.

There is one thing I hate about athletes and it's those that out their team and throw their teammates under the bus. That just makes me dislike a person when they do something like that.

You are basing his career off of what he is doing off the court. That's what has you blinded by what he is doing on the court. Good job.

Originally Posted by H3F Carnage

What does scoring that many points have to do with anything I don't see how that makes him amazing because he scored a lot of points in one game. In reality it doesn't help his team in the long run for him to have the ball and shoot it that many times, its like a quick fix because they'll get the win but it won't give other players the touches they need in order to develop. This is proven by Kobe taking less shots and his team doing better.

Scoring points has everything to do with a basketball game. Why do you think points determine the winner of a game?

Also, Kobe wants to win. If he thinks shooting the ball gets them the W, than he will do what it takes. If his coach thinks the same thing, he has more of a drive to do it.

Originally Posted by H3F Carnage

Wilt of course had a better season, and Jordan, but a regular season means nothing. Nada, not a damn thing. I mean the whole scoring thing would be a great argument if he was consistent, but his career average isn't on par with those like AI, Jordan and Wilt.

It isn't on par because the Lakers drafted him out of high school and didn't have enough confidence to just throw him in every game. He only averaged 20.5 minutes per game through the first two seasons. I am sure AI, Jordan, and Wilt had more playing time than him during the first two seasons.

Originally Posted by H3FCarnage

Stats aren't everything, the fact is that each of those guys had niches that made them amazing. Pete Maravich is a basketball god who just was plagued with injuries(like Bill Walton) that hampered his NBA career, I mean he averaged 45 pts A GAME in college WITHOUT A 3PT LINE. That is amazing. Also Kobe is not on MJs level, he can take over games yes, but he hasn't willed his team through the playoffs on his back and won a chip on his own. Not saying that Jordan did all of the games, but he certainly did more than his part I think him and AI and probably Wilt are the only players to average 30 or more pts in the post season. That is clutch.

Stats aren't everything yet you throw a Maravich statistic at me to show how much of a basketball GOD he is. Nice one.

Kobe may not be on MJ's level, but a lot of NBA analysts think he is close to it. You may argue with me about it, but you can't argue with them.

Originally Posted by H3F Carnage

lol.....no they could have at least won one more considering Shaq did in Mia. But even he couldn't deal with Kob..ch.

They couldn't win the championship with Gary Payton, Shaq, or Kobe so what makes you think Shaq and Kobe could have done it? Just because they did it without Payton and Malone before doesn't mean other NBA teams didn't get better through that time.

Carnage is just a straight out Kobe hater, let em be.

Originally Posted by GeaR

Carnage is just a straight out Kobe hater, let em be.

I know he is It's just fun debating over basketball. That's why I continue to argue with him.

San Antonio vs LA Lakers

This will be a good game. If Kobe can do what he did against the Nuggets than the Lakers will be just fine, but I still want to see more shots from Kobe. 7 shots does not cut it for me

Originally Posted by Shunt

Only Wilt and Jordan(I think) have had a better season and that's saying something. For a player to go out and score that much points a game every night is phenomenal.

Points aren't everything. Yes, scoring 35 PPG is one of the best scoring seasons of all time, but there were more than just Wilt and MJ who had a better season. Oscar Robertson averaging 30.9 pts 11.4 assists and 12.5 boards in '61-'62. And and 4 more seasons where he was one rebound or assist from averaging a triple double. Magic Johnson averaging 22.5 pts 12.8 assists and 7.9 boards in '88-'89. Rick Barry averaging 35.6 pts and 9.2 boards in '66-'67. There are many more, but yea you get the point.

I had responded to this last night, but I had clicked the edit button instead of the quote button which sucked but I'll do it again.

Originally Posted by Shunt

There have been crappier teams than the Toronto Raptors and even they never let a player put up 81 or more points. Only one team has and the player they were defending was an unstoppable center. For a shooting guard to score that many points is just unbelievable.

Yes there have, but usually when they were playing against a superstar the star wouldn't have played that many minutes because they would have already had victory in hand. Coaches usually take most of the starters out of the game before that esp in they're winning.

First off, Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg during the 05-06 season. My bad. Secondly, if you were to subtract 81 points from Kobe's 2,832 points that season and divided by one less game than the 80 games he played that season, he would still average about 34.8 ppg. Do the math.

Kobe was taking almost 30 shots a game, and playing the entire game. Also he would average 34.3 without the 81 pt game and be 1.3 pts ahead of Allen Iverson who only played in 72 games. Now AI could have at least gotten 2 or 3 40 pt games in the remaining 10 he didn't play and average more ppg than Kobe did. But that doesn't matter because Kobe taking almost 30 shots a game hurt his team no matter how many points he scored he never made anyone else better. Which is ALWAYS the prime consideration in determining a MVP.

Now you're saying he's on or near MJ level.

Kobe Bryant is NO WHERE near MJ level. Michael Jordan averaged 37.1 pts in a single season, and shot almost 50% from the field. MJ has 7, that's right 7 consecutive seasons averaging 30 or more points. Kobe has only done it back to back and it will most likely end with this season. I don't think you can say that Kobe Bryant is near MJ level.

You are basing his career off of what he is doing off the court. That's what has you blinded by what he is doing on the court. Good job.

No I'm not, I'm just not someone who thinks that a person who had 1 great scoring season and 1 great game makes him one of the best players of all time. Such an assumption is ridiculous and speculation like that only proves that Kobe fans make him incredibly overrated.

I had first commented on his attitude, and then someone said something about his skill and I disagreed which has lead us here.

Scoring points has everything to do with a basketball game. Why do you think points determine the winner of a game?

Yet scoring points alone doesn't make a player great, especially if thats all they have going for them they have to at least be among the most prolific, where Kobe is not.

Also, Kobe wants to win. If he thinks shooting the ball gets them the W, than he will do what it takes. If his coach thinks the same thing, he has more of a drive to do it.

But he can't do it every night, which is why the Lakers kept taking. Until he gets his team mates involved it's just wasted.

It isn't on par because the Lakers drafted him out of high school and didn't have enough confidence to just throw him in every game. He only averaged 20.5 minutes per game through the first two seasons. I am sure AI, Jordan, and Wilt had more playing time than him during the first two seasons.

If he was ready, he would have played. The Lakers didn't keep him off the court for no reason. He wasn't ready, and that doesn't negate the fact that other players who are better than him were.

Stats aren't everything yet you throw a Maravich statistic at me to show how much of a basketball GOD he is. Nice one.

I could have easily said he was an amazing playmaker but it probably wouldn't have gotten through to you as much because I seriously doubt you have ever seen him play.


Also the statistics thing was refering to people on the list earlier. Of course a lot of those players didn't put up big numbers, but they all had their niche that made them amazing, and of course better than Kobe. There is no doubt that their contributions are more than Kobe to his team, and there is no doubt that Kobe isn't on that level.

Kobe may not be on MJ's level, but a lot of NBA analysts think he is close to it. You may argue with me about it, but you can't argue with them.

You have to be kidding. Sports analyst? Do you know how many times they get things wrong? Just about every other draft they make a huge bust on a player, or predict a game wrong. Because sports are unpredictable. Also I doubt any analyst who says Kobe is as good as MJ is just saying it for shock value because thats what they do the majority of the time. A lot of fans are actually better at analyzing sports than most professionals.

They couldn't win the championship with Gary Payton, Shaq, or Kobe so what makes you think Shaq and Kobe could have done it? Just because they did it without Payton and Malone before doesn't mean other NBA teams didn't get better through that time.

I was saying that having Shaq on their team made their chances of winning a title a lot better.

Speaking of the crappy Raptors, they beat the Celtics tonight.

If Toronto gets Bargnani back to playing like he did last year at least (like he did tonight would be awesome if he played like that all the time) and get Ford back they are serious contenders...they're 23-19 with a significant injury to Ford and Bargnani playing like he has and they've played the toughest schedule in the league so far.

Originally Posted by Gift of Gab

Points aren't everything. Yes, scoring 35 PPG is one of the best scoring seasons of all time, but there were more than just Wilt and MJ who had a better season. Oscar Robertson averaging 30.9 pts 11.4 assists and 12.5 boards in '61-'62. And and 4 more seasons where he was one rebound or assist from averaging a triple double. Magic Johnson averaging 22.5 pts 12.8 assists and 7.9 boards in '88-'89. Rick Barry averaging 35.6 pts and 9.2 boards in '66-'67. There are many more, but yea you get the point.

I know points aren't EVERYTHING. I was just saying that the season he had was AMAZING in terms of points per game. Overall, Oscar Robertson's season from the '61-'62 season you mentioned was the best ever.

Originally Posted by H3F Carnage

*insert lots of words here*

I read everything you typed down and I realize to myself, it's going to take a lot of time to pull statistics out of my ass and argue a case for Kobe. Fact of the matter is that you have an opinion on him and I do too. We can argue until the end of the year and we wouldn't be done. Good debate though

Kobe > AI

Just had to point that out real quick......lol

Just end the argument already lol.

I just want to know what analyst thinks that Kobe is on MJ's level. I haven't heard one analyst ever say that and I would like to know who it was. If it's Barkley don't waste my time, if it's anyone else please tell me.