The Case for Agnosticism - Page 5

Cursed Lemon · #41 (**permalink**) 03-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekattan

Well you practically are saying that all religions are the same and they are not. Why because of the Bible. I know some passages are hard to believe but you gotta understand that it has it flaws. Religion has been corrupted by the greed of man and has been distorted in such a way to benefit those in power. But nevertheless the Bible is one of the most accurate history tools mankind has and I do believe all the passages about Jesus Christ are true.

Why should I believe in the Bible? Well why should you believe in evolution or thermodynamics? Because you read it in a book? Because it it's a fact? Well what is a fact? All those theorems and thoeries were proven out of assumptions and constants that can't be explained or proven, we just know they exist.

We all have become cynics in this world, we truly think we have it all figured out, but the more you learn (yeah thats right) the more you learn that you don't know sh.t. Only ignorant people think they have this world and life figured out.

For me Jesus Christ was real because he made sense. All that he spoke of I know is true cause it's what feels right. All this concern about wealth and material possesions don't make sense to me. It doesn't feel right that people stuff their faces with food day in and day out when there is people starving all around the world. Our society and way of life doesn't make sense and we have become assimilated to it and accepted it and we have become cynics.

You will become wiser with age Colostomizer and I know for a fact your views will change. I'm not saying that you will become catholic or jewish, just that many beliefs you have today will eventually change because of things you learn and experience, so be open to ideas.

Ekattan, you're smarter than this.

For one thing, the Quran could be held just as credible as the Bible for its "scientific observations" and whatnot. Nobody doubts that Jesus Christ actually existed, that's pretty much fact.

Evolution and thermodynamics have been done using observation and recording. There is no way to "observe and record" God. And if we're bringing it down to solid faith, I'm going to take a modern physics book over a 2,000-year-old collection of stories that have no backing.

And you know that morality is completely subjective, I don't even think I need to explain why.

Nefarious Dan · #42 (**permalink**) 03-20-2006

There's even an atheistic way to explain the things we can't explain: we have primitive minds barely capable of sentience, so it's reasonable that we can't understand where the universe came from. I mean, you can't picture 13 dimensions, can you? There are some things our brains are physically incapable of grasping. For some people, this is where god shows up. I'd rather believe eventually we'll advance enough to overcome the physical limitations on our minds. Perhaps this is why Buddhism, out of all religions, seems the best to me, though still incomplete.

ekattan · #43 (**permalink**) 03-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon

Ekattan, you're smarter than this.

For one thing, the Quran could be held just as credible as the Bible for its "scientific observations" and whatnot. Nobody doubts that Jesus Christ actually existed, that's pretty much fact.

Evolution and thermodynamics have been done using observation and recording. There is no way to "observe and record" God. And if we're bringing it down to solid faith, I'm going to take a modern physics book over a 2,000-year-old collection of stories that have no backing.

And you know that morality is completely subjective, I don't even think I need to explain why.

Lemon, you are right, I'm much smarter. First of all how can you validate the Quran when their prophet Mohammed actually killed numerous people,

"After each of the first two battles he expelled a Jewish tribe, and after the third major battle he had the males of the remaining tribe massacred for collaborating with his opponents."
Microsoft ® Encarta ® Encyclopedia 2005

Second, do you know what Enthalpy or Entropy is? Do you where the gravity constant derives from? Well you can't argue with me about thermodynamics or physics until you have a valid argument.

Third, morals aren't subjective. Why would we all feel that it isn't right to kill someone? Why do we all feel that it is wrong to steal? You can argue about thieves and murderers but that wouldn't validate your point.

Cursed Lemon · #44 (**permalink**) 03-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekattan

Lemon, you are right, I'm much smarter. First of all how can you validate the Quran when their prophet Mohammed actually killed numerous people,

"After each of the first two battles he expelled a Jewish tribe, and after the third major battle he had the males of the remaining tribe massacred for collaborating with his opponents."
Microsoft ® Encarta ® Encyclopedia 2005

Second, do you know what Enthalpy or Entropy is? Do you where the gravity constant derives from? Well you can't argue with me about thermodynamics or physics until you have a valid argument.

Third, morals aren't subjective. Why would we all feel that it isn't right to kill someone? Why do we all feel that it is wrong to steal? You can argue about thieves and murderers but that wouldn't validate your point.

Need I remind you of all the God-sanctioned killings in the Bible, and his general smiting-ness? The entire Old Testament, practically?

Just because we don't know where gravity comes from doesn't mean that gravity doesn't exist, and that it doesn't have constant properties that we can observe.

And morals absolutely ARE subjective. Just because it benefits society to not go around raping and pillaging does not in the least mean that Jesus' teachings have any ultimate metaphysical significance.

I'd like to make it clear that I am not arguing against the existence of an ultimate "creator", but the Christian God to me is a bunch of bullsh.t.

ekattan · #45 (**permalink**) 03-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon

Need I remind you of all the God-sanctioned killings in the Bible, and his general smiting-ness? The entire Old Testament, practically?

This was the old testament and it was God supposedly? Things are taken way to literal, when God said to Isaih to sacrifice his son, nobody would do that, it just meant to express the level of loyalty one shoould demonstrate which is also absurd. But like I say on my first post. Some passages are not believable or just don't make sense, but Jesus Christ did. Did Jesus Christ ever slaughter a village? No! He was true to his teaching until his last breath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon

Just because we don't know where gravity comes from doesn't mean that gravity doesn't exist, and that it doesn't have constant properties that we can observe.

It does exist but it's just a number, a number used to prove other theories, but do we know what it is? No! But we believe all other theories and formulas based on this constant because a book tells us to. Just like enthalpy and entropy which are the two constansts that uphold the thre thermo laws, but we really don't know what they are.

We tend to believe anything scientists tell us about the universe or about or world and they are all theories that hang on a string so thin and they are only validated through theories that can't be proven but accepted as fact, just like evolution. The only proof we will ever have of evolution is going to appear for another 100,000 million years.

But anybody ever mentions anything abouot religion to any agnostic or atheist they will shut their minds up completely. It's a double standard. All agnostics or athiest say is "prove it", but their willing to belive anything the government or science tells them.

It's so easy to disprove anything when faith is involved, but I would like to see agnostics or atheist prove that there isn't a God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon

And morals absolutely ARE subjective. Just because it benefits society to not go around raping and pillaging does not in the least mean that Jesus' teachings have any ultimate metaphysical significance.

It's not what benefits society those actions causes suffering and pain to people and have nothing to do with society. Would you like to see your sister or brother raped or tortured? Or do you think society wouldn't benefit from it?

Cursed Lemon · 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekattan

This was the old testament and it was God supposedly? Things are taken way to literal, when God said to Isaih to sacrifice his son, nobody would do that, it just meant to express the level of loyalty one shoould demonstrate which is also absurd. But like I say on my first post. Some passages are not believable or just don't make sense, but Jesus Christ did. Did Jesus Christ ever slaughter a village? No! He was true to his teaching until his last breath.

Okay, so you follow Jesus Christ, and not the Christian God? Well that's fine to me.

Quote:

It does exist but it's just a number, a number used to prove other theories, but do we know what it is? No! But we believe all other theories and formulas based on this constant because a book tells us to. Just like enthalpy and entropy which are the two constansts that uphold the thre thermo laws, but we really don't know what they are.

I believe gravity works because I see it all around me, it's OBSERVABLE. God is not observable. Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Quote:

We tend to believe anything scientists tell us about the universe or about or world and they are all theories that hang on a string so thin and they are only validated through theories that can't be proven but accepted as fact, just like evolution. The only proof we will ever have of evolution is going to appear for another 100,000 million years.

But anybody ever mentions anything abouot religion to any agnostic or atheist they will shut their minds up completely. It's a double standard. All agnostics or athiest say is "prove it", but their willing to belive anything the government or science tells them.

It's so easy to disprove anything when faith is involved, but I would like to see agnostics or atheist prove that there isn't a God.

I'll believe a scientist who has done research over a priest who says "because I said so". I cannot fathom one reason a scientist would "make up" thermodynamics, and regardless, all science is observation and recording. There are some things we haven't explained yet, but that doesn't mean "God did it".

And like I said, I believe it's a possibility that a creator made the universe. However, the Bible is a bunch of bold-faced LIES, and in no way at all does it have the right to the higher moral ground. Therefore, it is useless.

Quote:

It's not what benefits society those actions causes suffering and pain to people and have nothing to do with society. Would you like to see your sister or brother raped or tortured? Or do you think society wouldn't benefit from it?

Of course I don't want my family raped and tortured, but just because I think that way doesn't mean it's the ultimate morality of the philosophical universe. Same goes for everyone else.

ekattan · #47 (**permalink**) 03-20-2006

I talk to you about gravity constants and thermodynamic constants and you bring up the Spaghetti Monster.

"Ultimate Morality" that one is new to me?

Cursed Lemon · #48 (**permalink**) 03-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekattan

I talk to you about gravity constants and thermodynamic constants and you bring up the Spaghetti Monster.

"Ultimate Morality" that one is new to me?

Yes, because the FSM could just as easily replace the word "God" in the Bible, and it would make just as much sense. But I'm assuming you were speaking in defense of the Christian God, and if not, then I retract my statement.

And it's a new one to me too, because there is no such thing. Therefore, morality is completely and totally subjective.

Nefarious Dan · #49 (**permalink**) 03-20-2006

"Morals" are just the tendencies that evolution gave us. The group of monkeys that couldn't work together or murdered each other died out. Anthropic principle! Of course neither of you listens to me.

Cursed Lemon · #50 (**permalink**) 03-20-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nefarious Dan

"Morals" are just the tendencies that evolution gave us. The group of monkeys that couldn't work together or murdered each other died out. Anthropic principle! Of course neither of you listens to me.

BULLsh.t!!!! COME ON!!!!!

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