I know man, I'm just f..kin with ya. Without the work the Greeks with with philosophy, algebra and trig, we probably be no better off than the Romans were. And philosophy was the driving force behind logic, which is the foundation of math, which is the foundation of much of science. Logical deduction/reasoned logic is also the foundation of science. Transitive property indicates philosophy is the foundation of science, as a whole.

As a Christian, i believe the Bible is the spine of Christianity... and it is essential to it's belief. The Bible is God-breathed and i believe this. But the thing i believe many fail to realize is that being a Christian isn't about just reading the Bible and being legalistic... it's a personal experience. You can have one Christian who has his "quiet time" and reads the Bible 30 pages a day every day and meditates on it... and you can have another person who simply does a study every once and a while. To read the entire Bible is an accomplishment, IMO, but it is not essential to the Christian formula.

Yes, the Bible is the Word of God but just because someone doesn't believe a story or two in it, doesn't eradicate their belief or invalidate it. Again, i believe Christianity is a personal religion as much as it is a protocol and step-by-step guide to living. Each person experiences it differently but Christians are still united under one common belief. My .02

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"We laugh at honor and are shocked when we find knives in our backs, we follow those who cheat and steal. Look in my eyes, you won't find your way back. Our only compass smashed under our own heels, under our iron will. The abolition of man is within the reach of science. But are we so far gone that we'll try it?" - Dustin Kensrue

The Bible has no validity in the first place, though. It's just as credible as me writing a random religious book now and claiming that it's the truth. BTW, all religions claim to have these "personal experiences". Just like there are people ABSOLUTELY sure that they saw the Loch Ness Monster, when in fact it is not even there. However, it doesn't stop people believing it's there.

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Ironic sometimes isn't it?

See, i can't say that i agree with you about the Bible being in invalid source of history. If i'm not mistaken, there are plenty of documentations accounting BC and AD (i'll look for them if you want, but i am oh so lazy). Sure anyone can write a book about the times we live in today and establish it as a credible source only to be taken for truth decades later... but alas not everyone is easily swayed to believe just anything. The Bible wasn't written by a bunch of dimwits that just felt like creating an alternate reality for people to transform into a religion later down the road.

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"We laugh at honor and are shocked when we find knives in our backs, we follow those who cheat and steal. Look in my eyes, you won't find your way back. Our only compass smashed under our own heels, under our iron will. The abolition of man is within the reach of science. But are we so far gone that we'll try it?" - Dustin Kensrue

Well that's a common misunderstanding between one's in your religion.

The word of God, written by men. I don't trust men, do you?

Well listen, it must be just that, because at the end of the day, that book has given you the reason/idea to believe in this certain concept of God and his/her ways and rules of living.

The book is where it came from, the stories you believe in which represent many of your beliefs and codes of living are literally coming from the Bible.

It is nothing more than a book of ethics, a rather miserable one at that, mixed in with fables and lore and an all around entertaining read.

If any other book was created in that time, which was similar, you would be reading that one and praising that book, and following that book's ideas.

Well, I could make that very book.

In fact, others have made those books, at various stages in our history, what makes yours more valid?

Religion as we know it needed some sort of backbone to it's idealogy, hence the Bible, Koran, Torah, and so on.

Now to address the utter rediculous-ness and obvious unawareness of these makers of these books, and absolutely question and try the historical validity of it.

When this is done, we find it was quite a shabby, if not bad, job at linking and developing these books.

It deduces the "special-ness" of one book if the same could be present in another book written.

No, it isn't lol.

No, it's way more than a story or two! Comon man!

And even if it were, why would they be there in the first place?

If it was only relevant at that time (which it was for the most part), wouldn't God, being this bright guy he was, conceptualize and rationalize a lot more progressive and broad/accurate interpretation of these things?!

I know he would.

It absolutely does! That's called cherry-picking - because when you look at the stuff you are accepting, it is the same source/level of literacy as the ones you are disregarding.

How is that logically/rationally fair/make sense?

I disagree whole-heartedly.

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Are you kidding?

There is no historical proof of these accounts written in the bible, besides the bible - none.

People are indeed easy swayed by things! Propaganda has been active forever! Political and media manipulation has been strong ever since man decided to embellish greed and singularity.

The bible is nothing shy of laughable, it is conceptually very basic and primitive, one of which people back in that time could have very well come up with.

With the tools and knowledge people had back in that very time, this book could have easily been impressionable, which it had, and struck a revolution of religion.

What you speak of is nonsense.

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Borat my friend, i respect you and your beliefs. I understand the reasoning behind your disgust w/ Christianity (and other beliefs i would assume) in regard to logic, documentation, and reasoning. But often times people (and i'm not pointing fingers) assume that just because someone is religious or pious means they are void of intellect, logic, and out of touch with "the real world".

See that's the thing, just because someone believes in something that may sound a little out of the ordinary or even far-fetched... to assume that they live in their illogical, fantasy bubble is asinine and ignorant at best. I'm not accusing you of doing this, i'm just trying to clarify for the general audience and those that love to condemn religious people (all religions) of being out of touch with reality and foolish.

I understand and respect your view on Christianity, and while you have many good points that i would like to discuss... it will not sway me in my beliefs. I will listen, debate, and even take points into consideration (believe it or not), but to change someone from who they are isn't something to be taken lightly (aka online forums for that matter).

Like I said not long ago, i've kinda let the intellectual and philosophical part of my brain "rest" and i have not thought on many notions regarding theology and whatnot recently... i'm kinda just living my life right now, enjoying what i have. My beliefs remain the same and while i was "into" the debates regarding them long ago (haha, long as in a couple years)... i have gotten rusty (and lazy). So do forgive if i do not present a worthy rebuttal to all the points you or anyone makes.

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"We laugh at honor and are shocked when we find knives in our backs, we follow those who cheat and steal. Look in my eyes, you won't find your way back. Our only compass smashed under our own heels, under our iron will. The abolition of man is within the reach of science. But are we so far gone that we'll try it?" - Dustin Kensrue

Where did you get that from? I never ever said that.

You yourself, are evidently showing that to everyone.

See that's the thing, just because someone believes in something that may sound a little out of the ordinary or even far-fetched... to assume that they live in their illogical, fantasy bubble is asinine and ignorant at best. I'm not accusing you of doing this, i'm just trying to clarify for the general audience and those that love to condemn religious people (all religions) of being out of touch with reality and foolish.[/quote]

But you are lol, and I didn't even need to say it. You said it yourself.

It's not far-fetched, it's quite more than that.

I find it so rude for you to just say out of the countless things that seem "completely illogical or untrue", you allow the account of God and Jesus Christ to sliver through the cracks and stand firm in front of reality.

How illogical and intelligently unfair is that?

What?

How can you sit in this debate section and say something like that.

That is utter ignorance.

Just that.

I'm in awe.

People put there time and effort and thought into these refutes and you just openly exclaim ignorance.


What the hell are you talking about man?

I'm taking it with the uptmost honesty and respect I could have in trying to convince someone of something. Do you not see the passion many of us have in here for trying to reason?

What do you mean, who you are?

That's like you're saying, "being set in my ways, accepting my history and past, and accepting that change is not good, and that it cannot ever happen to a person."

Like I said not long ago, i've kinda let the intellectual and philosophical part of my brain "rest" and i have not thought on many notions regarding theology and whatnot recently... i'm kinda just living my life right now, enjoying what i have.

Dude, you're saying this, not me. lol

You're literally attesting to ignorance and intellectual laziness.

I don't know how you can live with yourself in your "ignorance is bliss" attitude.

Quite honestly, I find it insulting to tell you the truth. It also shows what kind of person you are if you openly admit that at any point you will just simply "turn off" your intellect and reason in favor of easiness and laziness and the pursuit of "good fun" without "worries" of reality.

Now that's something to pray for.

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Documented from McDowell's Evidence That demands a Verdict vol.1 in 1972 on the of pgs.40-48; as well as Time, in the 1995 January edition (23rd), pg.57

"We have today in our possession 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, another 10,000 Latin Vulgates, and 9,300 other early versions (MSS), giving us more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today."

Funny how many copies we have of Biblical accounts when famous philosophers such as Plato and Caesar account for significantly fewer copies combined.


Regarding evidence and the Bible...

Supposedly an inscribed stone was discovered that brings documentation about Pontius Pilate being the governor of Judea (according to The New Bible Dictionary, Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1962.).... ironically enough, just as Luke 3:1 says, "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea..."

Also, according to Acts 18:12, "But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat." Interesting, because in the same citation as above, a decree of claudius was found at Delphi, in Greece, describing Gallio as the proconsul of Achaia in ad 51, giving a correlation with Paul's ministry in Corinth.

I have many more points but i think i'm making myself clear; to say that the Bible holds 0 validity of history is foolish and ignorant. These are only documentations regarding positions held by these Biblical characters that oh so many think are make believe, right?

No need to get offensive or angry. I'm a person just like you. I may just not be as passionate about making people believe exactly what i believe. Sorry my friend.

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"We laugh at honor and are shocked when we find knives in our backs, we follow those who cheat and steal. Look in my eyes, you won't find your way back. Our only compass smashed under our own heels, under our iron will. The abolition of man is within the reach of science. But are we so far gone that we'll try it?" - Dustin Kensrue

*Sigh* So i guess it's now a sin to live ones life worry free and just kinda limbo for a bit? Maybe i shouldn't have come back to pay a visit to the forums with such hostility, geez.

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"We laugh at honor and are shocked when we find knives in our backs, we follow those who cheat and steal. Look in my eyes, you won't find your way back. Our only compass smashed under our own heels, under our iron will. The abolition of man is within the reach of science. But are we so far gone that we'll try it?" - Dustin Kensrue