Originally Posted by ForTheLastTime

Why is it that we're debating wether animals should be given rights, when we are killing innoncent children that are unwanted by our selfish society?
I'm not saying thats what abortion IS, but it often entails the extermination of a human life in the womb when the pregnancy extends into the later stages/

Originally Posted by ForTheLastTime

All lies. Legal abortions performed in every industrialized country are done as humanely as possible. 3rd world countries don't have abortions because they're often too stuck in religious dogma to even know it exists.

Sorry, but what you replied isn't true at all, here are the list of methods used in teh majority of countries that have legalized abortion.

***Maybe religious countries are against abortion for obvious reasons.
Fetus are commonly known to feel distress at 13 weeks, and can cry in pain by the 17th week.
Suction Aspiration
This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded.
Dilation and Curettage (D&C)
This method is similar to the suction method with the added insertion of a hook shaped knife (curette) which cuts the baby into pieces. The pieces are scraped out through the cervix and discarded [Note: This abortion method should not be confused with a therapeutic D&C done for reasons other than pregancy.]

Twelve-week pre-born baby
By the end of the third month all arteries are present, including the coronary vessels of the heart. Blood is circulating through these vessels to all body parts.
The heart beat ranges during this fetal period from 110 to 160 beats per minute. All blood cells are produced by the liver and spleen, a job soon taken over by the bone marrow. White blood cells, important for immunity, are formed in the lymph nodes and thymus.

Vocal chords are complete, and the child can and does sometimes cry (silently). The brain is fully formed, and the child can feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb. The eyelids now cover the eyes, and will remain shut until the seventh month to protect the delicate optical nerve fibers.


14 weeks - Muscles lenghten and become organized. The mother will soon start feeling the first flutters of the baby kicking and moving inside.

15 weeks - The fetus has an adult's taste buds and may be able to savor the mother's meals.
16 weeks - Five and a half inches tall and only six ounces in weight, eyebrows, eyelashes and fine hair appear. The child can grasp with his hands, kick, or even somersault.

Eighteen week pre-born baby

The fetus is now about 5 inches long. The child blinks, grasps, and moves her mouth. Hair grows on the head and body.
20 weeks - The child can hear and recognize mother's voice. Though still small and fragile, the baby is growing rapidly and could possibly survive if born at this stage. Fingernails and fingerprints appear. Sex organs are visible. Using an ultrasound device, the doctor can tell if the child is a girl or a boy. The one on the left is a baby girl.

Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them.
Salt Poisoning (Saline Injection):
Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother's abdomen into the baby's sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)


Six month pre-born baby
Seen here at six months, the unborn child is covered with a fine, downy hair called lanugo. Its tender skin is protected by a waxy substance called vernix. Some of this substance may still be on the child's skin at birth at which time it will be quickly absorbed. The child practices breathing by inhaling amnionic fluid into developing lungs.


Prostaglandin Chemical Abortion:
This form of abortion uses chemicals developed by the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Co. which cause the uterus to contract intensely, pushing out the developing baby. The contractions are more violent than normal, natural contractions, so the unborn baby is frequently killed by them -- some have even been decapitated. Many, however, have also been born alive.

Hysterotomy or Caesarean Section:
Used mainly in the last three months of pregnancy, the womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the abdomen. The technique is similar to a Caesarean delivery, except that the umbilical cord is usually cut while the baby is still in the womb, thus cutting off his oxygen supply and causing him to suffocate. Sometimes the baby is removed alive and simply left in a corner to die of neglect or exposure.


30 weeks - For several months, the umbilical cord has been the baby's lifeline to the mother. Nourishment is transferred from the mother's blood, through the placenta, and into the umbilical cord to the fetus. If the mother ingests any toxic substances, such as drugs or alcohol, the baby receives these as well.

32 weeks - The fetus sleeps 90-95% of the day, and sometimes experiences REM sleep, an indication of dreaming.
Five steps to a partial birth abortion:
1) Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's legs with forceps.



40 weeks - The baby, now approximately seven and a half pounds, is ready for life outside its mother's womb. At birth the placenta will detach from the side of the uterus and the umbilical cord will cease working as the child takes his first breaths of air. The child's breathing will trigger changes in the structure of the heart and bypass arteries which will force all blood to now travel through the lungs.

Many of the amazing pictures shown here were taken from the very excellent Nine Month Miracle CD ROM, by A.D.A.M. Software, Inc., the book A Child Is Born by the famous Swedish photographer Lennart Nilsson, and the handbook When You were Formed in Secret, by Gary Bergel. Photos appearing on this web site are reproduced under "fair use" terms for the purpose of public education. For permission to use these photos for commercial purposes, please contact the original sources indicated above. Source for much of the above text includes copyrighted material by Terwilliger Web Development Services and is used with permission.




These methods are a REALITY in most countries which support abortion.
Some have laws that ban some of these methods, most do not.

I fully support a woman's right to chose. First trimester abortions are perfectly fine - the embryo is less developed than a tadpole. It's incapable of feeling pain due to the lack of a brain, and lack of a Peripheral Nervous System.

We aren't justified in ending a human life for our own selfish reasons, even if its in the early stages of development.

However, I'm totally against partial-birth abortions - In those, the doctor waits until the baby's head comes out, and then hits the back with a hammer, spilling out the baby's brain, and killing it. Fortunately, they're illegal (even though abortion opponents claim they're legal 100% of the time).

These abortions are legal in some countries outside the U.S which legalized abortion.
It's ironic that people who support abortion in the later stages of pregnancies support animal rights as well.
Trust me, the expereince of an abortion can leave a family (such as mine) decimated by grief and regret.
Our family currently meets up with othe rfamilies that are in similar circumstances, and we participate in a support group for women (and families) who regret abortion. Though we aren't practicing Christians at all, we are completely against abortion laws due to the MANY people that we know through this group that have been left in ruins due to a simple abortion in the later stages of the pregnancy.

Originally Posted by Vrbas

Well i was always under the impression that "reason" played just a small part in our composition in comparison to brute instinct. To compare a human to an animal, telling me they are the same just seems a bit off to me. I guess it's just the way we look at it *shrug*

Originally Posted by EmptyProduction

That boy needs therapy, psychosomatic,
That boy needs therapy, purely psychosomatic
That boy needs therapy
Lie down on the couch! what does that mean?
Youre a nut! youre crazy in the coconut!
What does that mean? that boy needs therapy
Im gonna kill you, that boy needs therapy
Ranagazoo, lets have it to you
On the count of three
That, that, that, that, that boy.. boy needs therapy
He was white as a sheet
And he also made false teeth

Originally Posted by NiceGuy

omg. The Avalanches are awesome.

Have you seen this one?

Originally Posted by E Nomini Patri

Human babies act on instinct... At what point of the development is a Human no longer an animal?

Originally Posted by EmptyProduction

That boy needs therapy, psychosomatic,
That boy needs therapy, purely psychosomatic
That boy needs therapy
Lie down on the couch! what does that mean?
Youre a nut! youre crazy in the coconut!
What does that mean? that boy needs therapy
Im gonna kill you, that boy needs therapy
Ranagazoo, lets have it to you
On the count of three
That, that, that, that, that boy.. boy needs therapy
He was white as a sheet
And he also made false teeth

Originally Posted by ForTheLastTime

Animals are self-programmed, in a way, to survive and to take care of their young.
The implication of rights demands that the being will have the ability to make a decision in some way. Animals don't decide, "should I eat this fruit or no", they act according to instinct rather than emotion and reason, like humans.
Though obviously animalsm are entitled to fair treatment, they should definately never be treated as equal to human. Just THINK about what that implies.