If that is truly what your intent was in that initial statement, then yes you are correct. But most people would take that statement as you implying that you thought the 9/11 attack was justified in YOUR eyes, because you were the one that stated it, with no reference to Al-Qaeda originally.

Originally Posted by General AI

the justification was not valid, but there was a justification. When someone says there was a justification, that doesn't mean that it was a valid one.

if it is not a valid justification, then there is no justification...

how does that not make sense to you?

Originally Posted by NorthSpartan

Wrong. My cousin is a Seargent in the Army and he's told me personally that the people of Iraq love them and that they are praised by the people wherever they go. The politicians want us gone, not the people.

What does that have to do w/ our occupation of a foreign country.. I really don't know what is so hard to understand about this.. Occupations are ended, not won or lost.

I'm glad your cousin has told you that... There are plenty of other soldiers who think different, or who have had different experiences. Like this poll that says 71% of Iraqis want a w/drawl within a year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...092601721.html

Originally Posted by mattiz28

if it is not a valid justification, then there is no justification...

how does that not make sense to you?

Did I not give you an example in that last post?

A justification doesn't have to be valid, it only has to be used as the reasoning to be counted as a justification.

If someone does anything for a certain reason, that reason is their justification. It doesn't matter if others view it to be invalid.

Originally Posted by General AI

Did I not give you an example in that last post?

A justification doesn't have to be valid, it only has to be used as the reasoning to be counted as a justification.

If someone does anything for a certain reason, that reason is their justification. It doesn't matter if others view it to be invalid.

agree to disagree

Or........

jus•ti•fi•ca•tion
.noun
1. a reason, fact, circumstance, or explanation that justifies or defends: His insulting you was ample justification for you to leave the party.
…
3. the act of defending or explaining or making excuses for by reasoning

Originally Posted by T for ToXiC

The common thought during Columbus' day was that the Earth was flat. He could have conformed to this and have been ignorant. What did he do? He ventured beyond chartered territory and educated himself. Where there is a desire to acquire something there is a way, where the is a desire to educate one self there is a way. We live in the 21st century, the Earth isn't flat, are you going to conform yourself to believe the news media? Or will you venture to Iraq to view it in first hand expirience? Until you do view it, you can't say sh.t one way or the other.

You're comparing the old thought that the Earth was flat, to the war in Iraq?

You're officially talking out of your ass.

You don't need to be there, to comment on whether this is a just war or not. One can know enough about that state of affairs, to form an educated opinion on whether it should end or not.

Originally Posted by NorthSpartan

If that is truly what your intent was in that initial statement, then yes you are correct. But most people would take that statement as you implying that you thought the 9/11 attack was justified in YOUR eyes, because you were the one that stated it, with no reference to Al-Qaeda originally.

No...most people wouldn't. I thought you totally misunderstood what he was saying. I have no idea where you got that logic from.

Okay, I read through about 3 pages of this before I had to post,

I am currently deployed in the Diyala Province of Iraq on a 15th month deployment and here is what I have to say, from my prospective as a soldier and Sergeant in the US Army.

Let me start this off by saying if you haven't been here, then you will never understand what I'm talking about. I felt like I need to get some things off my chest and enlighten some of you out there who just don't get it.
Where to start? How bout the fact that I'm overworked, underpaid, and just all around tired and my body had been beaten into submisison through over a year of abuse. Now I can't lie, some of that abuse was my own doing, but most was thanks to this institution called the Army. Lets go ahead and go in order here.
Overworked: Lets see here, on a good week I work an average of 76 - 80 hours a week, depending on mission times and extra B.S. we have to do after mission. Now you might be thinking, hey plenty of people do this on a regular basis and they don't b..ch. Well those people don't have to deal with getting shot at, blown up, dealing with ungreatful, greedy people (more on that to come) on a daily basis. You ever see that show on the Discovery Channel about the world's sh.ttiest job? At least the dude who kills rats for a living has a 9-5. We work at all hours of the day and night and usually its back to back. AKA a late night mission followed by an early morning mission effectively cutting our recovery and down time to zero. You ever feel tired from coming home from work and just want to crash and you get a good 8 - 10 hours of sleep? Now think about being that tired and getting to crash for maybe 4 or 5 hours. Then doing it again and again and again for weeks on end until the schedule breaks and you finally get some decent rest. Not to mention because of operational security our schedules usually aren't put out until the the day before meaning we have no time to plan for ANYTHING. So yes theres are plenty of people who work overtime, and those people are properly compensated. Which brings us to...
Underpaid: If I was doing my same exact job back home in Arkansas with considerably less danger and the same hours in a mid-level position I would be making a little over 4K a month. Thats a nice chunk of change. Now here on the current pay scale, I make a little over 2K a month. Thats less than half for over 2/3 more bullsh.t. Thats with being in the Army for close to 2 years and having gotten two promotions since I joined up. Imagine being at the same company for 2 years, flying your way up the corporate ladder and you still get treated like a little kid by those who think they know better than you even though those specific people have no idea what your job entails. But hey thats the beauty of rank structure. I had to literally save a life before I got any type of respect around my "bosses"
Tired and Beaten: I've never been this exhausted and hurt in my entire life. I'm 24 years old, have an active lifetyle, and live healthy. So why the hell do I feel like a 40 year old whos been doing heavy lifting his entire life? Before the Army I had broken one bone, and that was my arm when I brok it in gym class Now I can't even stand for an extended period of time, like lets say a 6 hour foot patrol around Baghdad, now in Diyala, without feeling some type of pain and swelling. As far as being sick. I've gone out on mission with food poisoning, coughing up lungs, aches and pains, migranes, and various other illnesses. What could be the cause of this you say? Well it could be the fact that the only thing I have to wear in 20 degree weather with wind chill is 2 layers of long sleeve shirts. Not to mention that we are out there for 6 - 8 hours walking around sweating in our clothes and just absorbing all the cold. It makes for a miserable time. It could be the fact that when we stay on the FOB I share a master bedroom size area with 2 other guys so if one of us gets sick, the other 2 are next and the cycle just keeps going around and around amongst the platoon. It could be that when we stay out at the Combat Outpost there is literally mold growing the in the living quarters. It could also be that a 100 man troop is sharing a total of 65 beds. So Joe A gets sick, coughs all over mattress then Joe B comes in and sleeps in same bed while Joe A is out on mission. Joe B then gets sick and has to move to a different mattress where he spreads his illness to Joe C and so on and so forth. Being the preventative health representative makes me sick to my stomach because no matter what I say its going to be taken with a grain of salt because some 2 star general thinks it would be a good idea for us to stay out there. Thats nice coming from his 1 man housing unit on some FOB deep into safe territory. Screw you guy. Its not like I can take a sick day either. I pretty much have to be on the verge of death to get out of work. There is saying in the Army Medic world. It goes something like "take motrin and drive on." because that is literally the perscription to 90% of all sick call type problems. When I fractured my ankle, I had a choice. It was let it heal be on crutches for a while and start my 4 months of medic training all over again with a whole new group of people OR take motrin and drive on. Well I took the motrin.
Now I wrote in a earlier blog that I was proud of the work we are doing over here, and I am, but none of you will ever see that. You know why? Because that doesn't make for good T.V. You will never see the countless civilians we have treated due to the secretarian violence, or just plain ol domestic disturbances. The lady I treated on New Years Eve was shot three times because she refused to marry some guy. She wasn't an unfortuante victim of a gunfight between insurgents and coalition forces. She was gunned down at point blank range because some asshole couldn't take no for an answer. Sure, things happen like that in the States as well, but you don't call the freaking Army out to take care of it. Again, more on that to come, I want to focus on the good for a second. You'll never see the free clinics we set up for Iraqi citizens because they can't get quality health care from their own country. You'll never see the land disputes and power, and water problems we deal with on a daily basis get resolved because we came in a mediated the situation. You'll never see the jobs we create for the locals by mediating such situations. Think about it. The water pipe breaks and no one wants to get off their lazy ass to fix it. We go in and the streets are flooded. We find Mohammad whos the only one who knows how to fix the leak and is supposed to take care of things like that but doesn't because well hes not getting paid for the job so screw everyone else. So we come up with some type of compensation for him and all of a sudden he employs a bunch of locals, the leak gets fixed and everyone is happy. You won't see the schools, and hospitals, and parks, and soccer fields we help build and the supplies we give the Iraqis to run those places smoothly. We give these people everything, all the tools, but instead of using them to rebuild their country, they run off with them because they are all greedy and figure they can make a profit by selling them. So now we're back to square one. Theres still no water, no power, no school or medical supplies, the soccer fields and arks turn to crap because no one wants to upkeep them. So what do we do? We find someone else and start the whole process over and low and behold the same damned thing happens.
A few stories from experience. Being here for about 6 months now I can truly say that these people care nothing about their country, nothing about their countrymen. They are greedy, ungreatful, and as soon as they don't get their way will turn on you. Take the 50 new police vehicles given to a Iraqi Police, or IP, in Southern Iraq. 50 brand new vehicles given to the commisioner of this district to security purposes and just in general to help them out. 1 week, I say again 1 week later British Forces go in to check on the gift they gave to the commisioner and come to find an empty motorpool and the guy had skipped town. Later came to find out that through all the weeks of dealing and tyring to set up the drop off, the guy already had a buyer on the black market and the vehicles were gone the very night they got there. You can't blame them though, they are brought up like this from when they were children. When we first got into country, winning the hearts and minds was number one priority. We would walk the streets, hand out candy to the kids. Now there are times when handing out candy just isn't priority number 1 like say when we are doing a raid, or after we had just gotten out of a firefight and looking for the bastards that shot at us. Now I've come to learn the words for no, go away, I don't have anything in Arabic very well, but still these kids don't get it. Even while on patrol these greedy kids just don't let up. Its always, "mister give me chocolate, mister give me dollar, mister give me give me give me." Now it would be one thing if we gave some kids some candy and they went away greatful but this is not the case. This is an actual situation that took place. A young boy, probably early teens comes up to me while out on patrol. The Lieutenant was in a meeting so we were pulling security for him. So this kid comes up to me and asks me for some chocolate. Well it just so happened that I had some sour warheads I was sucking on myself and I was feeling in a generous mood that day so I gave him some. He opens it up looks at it and throws it on the ground and asks me for chocolate. I tell him thats all the candy i have. He asks for chocolate. I tell him I have no chocolate. He tries to grab inside of my cargo pockets. I slap his hand and he asks for chocolate. I tell him I have no chocolate. He then proceeds to ask me for a dollar. Now I'm not talking like please can I have a dollar. I'm talking the kid is standing there with his hand out expecting me to give him some of my hard earned money. He was practically demanding it. So already getting frustrated with the situation becasue this kid won't leave me alone and that he tried to steal from me by reaching in my pocket I tell him I have no money. The same cycle occurs of me telling him no and him keep asking. Hes getting more demanding at this point. He then demands I give him a football (or what we americans call soccer ball). Now I'm wearing 60 pounds of gear that consists of a helmet, protective vest with plates and a whole bunch of ammo pouches attached, knee pads, eyepro, and gloves. Where the hell would I keep a soccer ball? So again I tell him no, he keeps asking. All and all I was talking with this same kid for about 45 minutes while tyring to keep the area secure because oh yeah there are people out there who want to kill us. So I'm stressed and angry and finally just tell this kid to go away. Well he gets all butt hurt and as hes walking away he looks at me with daggers in his eyes, literally the worst look I've ever gotten and he takes his thumb and runs it across his neck meaning that he wants to slit mine because I wouldn't give him something. 1 The U.S. Army is not a f..king charity. We give kids things becasue we are trying to make a good impression. Half the time we give kids something and they turn around and ask for more or ask for something else. 2 f..k off, I have a job to do and it doesn't including putting up with you for 45 minutes of continuous badgering while the whole time I'm telling you I have nothing for you. Don't get mad at me if its not the number one thought on my mind to bring out soccer balls for ungreatful little assholes like yourself kid. Now we used to give out candies and toys and things like that to the kids on a regular basis until we realized just how futile it is and all during that time you know how many Thank Yous I heard? 1. 1 freaking thank you in English or Arabic in the 4 months we were giving them free crap. Go to hell you little hooligans...
Up next, the abismal state of this country, why security is improving, why we are doing the policians dirty work, and why we should pull out...

The state of this country and the "progress" it has made. First again let me tell you that these people are shooting themselves in the foot on a daily basis politically. Benchmarks have been set up, both politically and militraily (is that even a word? I dont know forgive me I'm tired). Most of the benchmarks have been met by the military. From improving the security situation in all of the country to training the local army to start taking control of their own cities. I work with a very talented group of soldiers from the Iraqi Army. If only we could operate like them, let me tell you you don't want to be a insurgent and get caught by the IA... Other than that I can literally see the improvement of life that comes with increased and better security. People aren't afriad to come out of their homes anymore. Children, as annoying as they are come out and play in the streets. Shops are opening up, and smaller local economies are starting to pick up. The ball has been dropped by the Iraqi Government. They are failing their people. In order to rebuild their infrastructure the governent HAS to render aid. This includes building new schools, hospitals, police stations, and training areas for the Army. They just aren't doing it. They are more worried about whos religious affiliating will have the majority in the parlement than actually getting work done. They squble over petty grabage like changing the national flag than working out a budget to rebuild their country. The local tribal heads can only do so much and we can only carry them so far. They need to get over the Sunni vs. sh.te bull and look at whats good for the people. The U.S. needs to hold the Iraqis accountable. Too many times we have set forth a benchmark and the Parliment has failed. This cannot be accepted. Its like having a bad child, you keep making excuses for them and they will never change their behavior. Maybe if we stopped helping out a little the people could start pushing their government to get some actual work done. These people will never get anything accomplished as long as we keep holding their hand.
Speaking of improved security, security has improved across the board with increased troop numbers or "the surge". This has not come without cost to the military, but more on that later. One of the biggest factors besides more troops on the streets is that we are hitting them hard where it counts, the wallet. We serach out and hunt down financiers of insurgent operations all the time. Most people don't know this, but there is a price on every American Soldiers head. Back when the war kicked off it was equal to about $500 for every dead American. Now with the money running out and more insugents either dead or put in prison the price has dropped to about $200 a head. So you are Mohammed off the streets and someone will pay you $500 to make a bomb, place it and kill some Americans. That $500 will feed your family for almost a whole year. You have trained professionals to help you make the bomb and plenty of materials on hand. Its too easy to take one of two of those jobs and live out the rest of the year without having to work. Now decrease the amount paid out for placing a bomb, take away knowledgable people (because we have either killed them or captured them) and readibly accesable bomb making materials (because we search out and find weapons caches) and its just not worth it. I've actually worked on a local national who blew himself up trying to place in a homemade bomb that went off in his face. These people aren't tyring to kill us, they are just poor and trying to make a quick buck. They don't hate Americans, they're just lazy. Its the Iraqi government not providing the jobs for the people that lead them to this. Again, these people can help themselves but refuse to. Everyday you can see an American patrol walking the streets of Baghdad. These people know who the insurgents are and are either cowards or indifferent. Anyone of them can come up to us and tell us that their neighbor has been doing some shady stuff, but they let us walk right past waving and smiling. Then they blame us when a suicide bomber walks into a market and blows themselves up. Its not our fault that we couldn't get to the bombmakers in time. We can only do so much. If these people really cared, they could stop us and give us credible intel and we could do our jobs and save lives.
I've never been trained as a diplomat, but here I am in Iraq doing the job of a diplomat. I've been tained to fight and save lives, but only on occasion have I been able to use those skills. Many of us work long days with little to no time off, and what time we do get is not nearly enough to sustain us for another daunting round of patrols. We have seen the horrors of war and are feeling the effects of a "straining Army". People have sacraficed their families, friends, money to be here and do what we do and it seems like we are rewarded with more deployments and are even further disconnected from home. There are people here who weren't around for their child's birth and won't be there for their first birthdays. There are guys here who have gotten or in the process of divorce. After all that guys are coming home from 15 months of being shot at or blown up, dealing with other people's problems or just problems at home. You get maybe 1 year to adjust to being back at "home" (which I could argue isn't nearly enough time) then they are right back out there in the fight. No wonder the number of troops who tried to commit suicide or injure themselves increased from 350 in 2002 to 2,100 last year. We're tired of fighting without seeing any results on the grand scale.
With things as it are now, we should just leave. Pull all our support. Benchmarks aren't being met politically, and the Iraqis need to take control of their own security situation. If we leave it will force them to get over their petty differences. They will either find a way to work thigns out or plunge into a civil war. Either way they can deal with it themselves. We tried, we helped all we could and we were given the cold shoulder. We've given them the ways and the means to fix this country, its up to them now.

That was a damn good read ShiftE.